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Medieval History
(8 Jun 2015, 06:59:24)Austenasia Wrote:
(7 Jun 2015, 23:10:59)PavlvsAemilivs Wrote: The last Roman Emperor, Romulus Augustulus, was deposed by the Germanic leader Odoacer. And the last Roman bastion was Soissons, fallen in 486.

Any questions?

...and you were doing so well :P

Obviously, Soissons was not "the last Roman bastion". That was Constantinople, which fell in 1453.
But Constantinople was Eastern Roman. Technically yes, it was Roman, but to be more specific, Soissons was the last Western Roman Bastion. Sorry for not specifying :P

Quote:And Romulus Augustulus was not the last Roman Emperor. He wasn't even the last Western Roman Emperor. He was an usurper, appointed as a puppet by his father Orestes, a Germanic general. At this time, the Western Roman Empire consisted only of Italy, Soissons (north Gaul), Dalmatia, and part of what is now Morocco and Algeria. Italy is the only province out of them that we know recognised Romulus' rule, and the Eastern empire didn't, either.

The actual last Western Roman Emperor was Julius Nepos. He had been appointed by the Eastern Roman Emperor in 474, and overthrew the usurper Glycerius. He ruled from Italy until being overthrown by Orestes, after which he retreated to Dalmatia.

When Romulus Augustulus (or, more accurately, Orestes) was overthrown in 476 by the Germanic general Odoacer, Julius Nepos was still ruling Dalmatia as Western Roman Emperor, an office which he was recognised as holding by the Eastern Roman Emperor Zeno. When the Roman Senate wrote to Zeno asking for Odoacer to be recognised as his viceroy in the West, Zeno replied that Julius Nepos was the rightful Western Emperor. Until Julius' death in 480, Odoacer minted coins with his portrait and name. He only actually ruled Dalmatia, but he was recognised as the legal emperor throughout Italy.

The usurper Romulus Augustulus, deposed in 476, cannot be considered the last Western Roman Emperor when a legitimate emperor ruling and recognised as such was reigning in the West until 480.
To be honest, the Western Roman Empire was so weak at this point that the central power from Rome was too weak, and many governors arose. Julius Nepos was one of those, and he ruled Dalmatia, yes, but this is why there is actual debate whether the last Emperor was Romulus Augustulus or Julius Nepos, and I don't take sides on this, frankly. I just say it was Romulus Augustulus and many other governors ruled the remaining land of the WRE such as Soissons and Dalmatia.

Quote:Anyway, one cannot really use a date like 476 or 480 to mark the "fall of the Western Roman Empire". The WRE didn't fall, but rather gradually collapsed. After 480, Italy under Odoacer didn't legally become independent, but was ruled in Zeno's name instead (and then in the name of his successor Anastasius I, and so on...). The Western provinces, although recognised as autonomous from the Roman Emperor, were considered part of the Roman Empire for centuries to come.
It is thought that 476 is the date of the fall of the Empire because Romulus Augustulus was deposed by Odoacer in this date, and it's used as a reference to the fall of the WRE and the beginning of the Middle ages. It is true, other Western Roman bastions survived, and the Empire slowly declined, but once again, 476AD is used as a reference to point the beginning of the Middle ages. Romulus Augustulus is even known to live until 507AD, despite he was no longer Emperor.
Paolo Emilio I, Caudillo of Trebia
Well, I must say, sorry for the incredibly late response. The IRL world was incredibly busy for me at the time I started this thread. So busy that I had forgot this thread, but now I am willing to continue.

To begin, would you prefer we start with a next topic?

I've been thinking on talking either about the Barbarian occupation of the former Western Roman Empire, or skip directly to the Frankish and Byzantine Empires. Which do you prefer?
Paolo Emilio I, Caudillo of Trebia
I am hoping we continue our discussion about the Holy Crusades at some point soon. Perhaps we can initiate this by discussing the Islamic invasion of the Orient in the seventh century?
Be patient, Markus, all in good time! :D We haven't even gotten to 500 AD yet.

Let's go in order, Paolo. We could speak briefly on the barbarian infiltration if it's a distasteful topic to you, though!
It's not distasteful for me! What has been done has been done. The future worries me more, for we can still prevent more bad outcomes before they actually happen :)

I'll get started tomorrow then, cause it's late here
Paolo Emilio I, Caudillo of Trebia
Well then. Let's get started. On this map we can find the routes barbarian tribes took to occupy the Roman Empire.

As we may see:
  • The Angles, Saxons and Jutes left Denmark and invaded the British Isles
  • The Franks occupied much of the northerm part of the Roman Province Gallia (current France).
  • The Goths immigrated from Scandinavia and split into Ostrogoths and Visigoths.
  • The Visigoths traveled through the Balkans and Italy, and eventually settled their Kingdom in Hispania (present day Spain)
  • The Ostrogoths went directly from Eastern Europe to Italy and settled their Kingdom there.
  • The Huns were the most fearsome barbarians. Of mythical origin, the Huns were skilled horse riders who pillaged most of the Roman Empire.
  • The Vandals did the longest route. They left from Central Europe and plundered all their way to Gallia (France), Hispania (Spain) and under Genseric, established a Kingdom in North Africa. Later, the Byzantines would conquer them.

So, let's analyze a bit more closely what did these groups do

The Huns
The Huns came from Central Asia, and descend from the Xiongnu tribes. They first plundered Persia and Scythia. However, when Rugila, King of the Huns died, supposedly from a thunderbolt. The rest of the Hunnic army is reported to have died due to a plague. Personally, either the Huns lived in superstition or they simply were very careless of thunders and had poor hygiene.

The thing is, Mundzuk, Rugila's brother and Hunnic prince had two sons. Attila and Bleda. When Rugila died, both Attila and Bleda assumed power as joint leaders. Eventually, Attila murdered Bleda to get all the power for himself. And the Roman Empire would face true terror...

Stay tuned for part 2!
Paolo Emilio I, Caudillo of Trebia
Will there be a second part to this glorious narrative, ally?

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