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Micronational Military Operations
(13 Dec 2017, 08:43:42)ThegnSiarFordell Wrote: Interesting ideas, and while I do feel sorry for micronationalists who's host nation refuses to allow their population to adequately defend themselves, it might be more difficult than you would think to set up a shooting sports organization, and a lot of the costs associated with it would be prohibitive to many micronations out there.
Yeah, here in the UK there is a large restriction on what weapons a person can own. That's why we train using bows and arrows since you don't need a licence to ksb one. We also agree with your enthatsis of software over hardwear, in that we plan on training our military in survival skills and about the messages presented in the art of war. Here in the Kingdom of Befshire, we also are considering training troops in bushcraft, in Case we were to get invaded and over run they could survive in the large areas of forrest claimed by the Kingdom.
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(16 Dec 2017, 16:13:58)cuayos Wrote:
(13 Dec 2017, 08:43:42)ThegnSiarFordell Wrote: Interesting ideas, and while I do feel sorry for micronationalists who's host nation refuses to allow their population to adequately defend themselves, it might be more difficult than you would think to set up a shooting sports organization, and a lot of the costs associated with it would be prohibitive to many micronations out there.
Yeah, here in the UK there is a large restriction on what weapons a person can own. That's why we train using bows and arrows since you don't need a licence to ksb one. We also agree with your enthatsis of software over hardwear, in that we plan on training our military in survival skills and about the messages presented in the art of war. Here in the Kingdom of Befshire, we also are considering training troops in bushcraft, in Case we were to get invaded and over run they could survive in the large areas of forrest claimed by the Kingdom.

You do, indeed, have my condolences. The English longbow has a long and storied history of defeating numerically and technologically superior enemies, so a bow and arrow probably isn't a bad set to train with. You also maintain a somewhat close in level of engagement (within a few hundred yards, for example) that offers quite a bit of overlap to standard infantry maneuver and training doctrines.

As far as your training on the messages presented in Sun Tzu's "The Art of War" - might I suggest a more modern tome to extract lessons from? Don't get me wrong, The Art of War is a seminal work, and well worth reading, but it is also more than 2000 years old, and literally every manual or doctrine written down since then on military subjects is based on it, and expands it out. It is a wonderful study into psychology, mindset, and military philosophy, but it is also primarily a series of maxims and idioms. do not read it thinking you will glean any new tactical knowledge from its pages, because among the majority of the military these days, Sun Tzu's principals are little more than common sense.
"Sola Virtus Nobilitat!"
Virtue (Valor) Alone Enobles!

Ser John Marshall, Thegn of Siar Fordell

The Thegn-Hold of Siar Fordell

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I would have to disagree on that last sentence. Sun Tzu's principles were meant to be taught to those who had little knowledge of military tactics at the time. While movements and tactical formations may be sorely out-of-date, those lessons related to matters of the mind are relevant even today.

I personally defer to his lessons on leadership rather than obsolete tactics, as the former is by far the best place to glean new and purposeful concepts from.


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One thing that has always interested me personally, enough to spill over into micronational affairs, is subterranean operations. Through history, there have been a large number of tunnel rats in my family, especially on my mothers side, on account of our generally small builds. My grandfather was intimately acquainted with the sewers of Warsaw circa 1944.

Any student of military history would notice that mines, tunnels and sewers have been a big part of military operations ever since humans learned how to dig. From the spider holes of Afganistan, to the rubble strewn hellscape of Stalingrad, to the French catacombs of the revolution, war has always been fought by rats.

I have a pretty firm grasp of the wartime uses for subterranean ops; covert supply and evac, fortification and cover, that sort of thing, but what I'm really struggling to figure out how to merge the civil and military uses. Some are pretty obvious like SAR in collapsed buildings, storm water and flood control engineering... Beyond that things are a bit fuzzy. My own research has stalled largely because I don't know where to begin. I'd done a bit of urban exploration, mostly storm drains, when I was younger, and I've learned a few things along the way, but there seems most knowledge of civil, sub surface work is fragmented and specialized to certain areas (mining, sewer work and communication, mostly)

Do you know of any resource paths one might investigate, training programs one could look into? Looking for a different perspective, maybe I'm missing something.
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You could look into underground housing.


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(17 Dec 2017, 22:24:57)Thomas Merrell Wrote: You could look into underground housing.
Thought about it.. While it's doable, it's not particularly feasible in our current AO. West central FL, loose sand and clay, lots of moisture... Anything solid is usually below the water table, and moisture control is a constant PITK. Incidentally, that's also a partial motivator and guideline for my micronational military doctrine. Sinkholes, and the collapsed buildings they cause are a legitimate worry in my AO, hence the connection to search and rescue. I've been looking out for people (mostly local) involved in geoengieering, but folks like that aren't thick on the ground.
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Most engineering projects are, or can be, military projects. The US Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for the vast majority of public works in the United States - at least at the Federal level. The subterranean information that you already mentioned - tunneling, Search & Rescue, flood engineering etc. are probably the main ones that you are going to find, and indeed, most subterranean research is specialized and specific because it is primarily what it is used for specialized and specific roles. I am still unclear as to what it is you want to do with this information. If you're just looking for general knowledge, that is fine, but I think that the best route to take would be to determine your goals and objectives for the project and backwards plan how to get there. It might be that bunker complexes or mining manuals might not be far off in getting you where you need to be. I don't know what sort of more generalized below ground information you might be looking for, but I grew up in North West Florida, and FEMA, the Red Cross, and CERT all have a big presence in that area due to Hurricanes, etc. all offer some sort of medical or SAR training (though how specific to underground SAR I couldn't tell you) that is free and typically of very good quality. Geology courses, Civil Engineering courses, caves, etc. might also be of interest to you... but without knowing more specifically what you're looking for, I don't know where else to point you.
"Sola Virtus Nobilitat!"
Virtue (Valor) Alone Enobles!

Ser John Marshall, Thegn of Siar Fordell

The Thegn-Hold of Siar Fordell

Wiki Page for Siar Fordell
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(18 Dec 2017, 04:42:08)ThegnSiarFordell Wrote: Most engineering projects are, or can be, military projects. The US Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for the vast majority of public works in the United States - at least at the Federal level. The subterranean information that you already mentioned - tunneling, Search & Rescue, flood engineering etc. are probably the main ones that you are going to find, and indeed, most subterranean research is specialized and specific because it is primarily what it is used for specialized and specific roles. I am still unclear as to what it is you want to do with this information. If you're just looking for general knowledge, that is fine, but I think that the best route to take would be to determine your goals and objectives for the project and backwards plan how to get there.  It might be that bunker complexes or mining manuals might not be far off in getting you where you need to be. I don't know what sort of more generalized below ground information you might be looking for, but I grew up in North West Florida, and FEMA, the Red Cross, and CERT all have a big presence in that area due to Hurricanes, etc. all offer some sort of medical or SAR training (though how specific to underground SAR I couldn't tell you) that is free and typically of very good quality. Geology courses, Civil Engineering courses, caves, etc. might also be of interest to you... but without knowing more specifically what you're looking for, I don't know where else to point you.

Personally I believe the US military, during peacetime, should be utilized in the majority of our nation's infrastructure projects. It's what Ancient Rome did, and their buildings and roads speak for themselves.
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Violette "Suzuki" Clingersmith, Founder and Provisional Leader of New Providence (2018-), Creator and Caretaker of the Sunþrawegaz Kuningadōmas (2017-), Senator from the Federation of Zenrax (2017-), Co-founder and Former President of the Republic of Drew Star Line (2006, 2007-2017), Uskorian Knight of the Bachelorette, Novian Baroness of the Fennec Fox, Recipient of the Sovereign Order of the Rose.

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(18 Dec 2017, 13:12:41)Suzuki/Violette Wrote:
(18 Dec 2017, 04:42:08)ThegnSiarFordell Wrote: Most engineering projects are, or can be, military projects. The US Army Corps of Engineers is responsible for the vast majority of public works in the United States - at least at the Federal level. The subterranean information that you already mentioned - tunneling, Search & Rescue, flood engineering etc. are probably the main ones that you are going to find, and indeed, most subterranean research is specialized and specific because it is primarily what it is used for specialized and specific roles. I am still unclear as to what it is you want to do with this information. If you're just looking for general knowledge, that is fine, but I think that the best route to take would be to determine your goals and objectives for the project and backwards plan how to get there.  It might be that bunker complexes or mining manuals might not be far off in getting you where you need to be. I don't know what sort of more generalized below ground information you might be looking for, but I grew up in North West Florida, and FEMA, the Red Cross, and CERT all have a big presence in that area due to Hurricanes, etc. all offer some sort of medical or SAR training (though how specific to underground SAR I couldn't tell you) that is free and typically of very good quality. Geology courses, Civil Engineering courses, caves, etc. might also be of interest to you... but without knowing more specifically what you're looking for, I don't know where else to point you.

Personally I believe the US military, during peacetime, should be utilized in the majority of our nation's infrastructure projects. It's what Ancient Rome did, and their buildings and roads speak for themselves.

Well, as I said before, the Corps of Engineers is used in almost all federal level infrastructure projects... the issue, however, is that the vast majority of infrastructure is not at the federal level - it is owned by states, counties, municipalities, or cities, etc. and the mayor of some town in Indiana can't just call up the US Army and make them repave a road... nor can the Governor of California, or the county commission of Fulton Co. Georgia. You'd have literally every community in the country fighting over an extremely limited resource just so that it didn't have to come out of their own budget. That would bring up the issue of who would get priority, and which projects would be approved, etc. Also, the number of soldiers who are skilled at engineering and would be effective at working on infrastructure is tiny compared to the size of the US Military... and the US Military is tiny in comparison to the population of the United States. There is no way that it could effectively handle even a small percentage of the infrastructure projects in the country. A reliance on the Military would also hinder job growth, as many engineering and skilled labor positions would be lost to the military, and the huge numbers of contracting companies and construction companies who bid on projects for states, counties, and cities would simply vanish...
"Sola Virtus Nobilitat!"
Virtue (Valor) Alone Enobles!

Ser John Marshall, Thegn of Siar Fordell

The Thegn-Hold of Siar Fordell

Wiki Page for Siar Fordell
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