Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 4 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Markus II vs. Akihonaomi debates
#11
(6 Jun 2016, 21:46:35)DNSgov Wrote: If I said that all Muslims are terrorists, are Muslims are evil, than I will also have to say that all Christians are evil, because the actions of a few essentially wiped out two whole continents of people,

What two continents are these? I only know of seven continents, and none of them involved any program of Christian-sponsored mass-killing.

(6 Jun 2016, 21:46:35)DNSgov Wrote: subjugated two other continents,

Which two continents?

(6 Jun 2016, 21:46:35)DNSgov Wrote: and almost destroyed my great-grandmother's people, the Jews of Central Europe.

The Catholic Church has always had a respectful attitude towards Jews, but perhaps we could discuss a few examples of this destruction of Judaism. The only example that I can think of - other than the invasion of Israel by the Muslims - is probably the Holocaust enacted by non-Christians, the Nazis. Are you really suggesting that the Christian faith has had some animosity towards Jews?
Reply
#12
(6 Jun 2016, 21:46:35)DNSgov Wrote: Actually, during the time of the early Caliphate, medieval Europe was the backwater of the world. Classical civilization and its teachings were maintained by Muslim scholars, particularly in Alexandria. If it wasn't for these Muslim scholars, the works of Aristotle, Plato and others would have been lost forever, never to be rediscovered by European traders in the 13th and 14th centuries.

This is precisely what I mean when I say, "you have been deprived of a legitimate western education". Whether or not you have read Plato or Aristotle (I have read very little of both, and Aristotle, of that which I have read, is quite difficult) makes no difference, but the manner in which you view how their writings were reciprocated to the Western world is of the utmost importance.

This notion - and I maintain it comes from modernist, uppity Enlightenment thinking - that the writings of Plato and Aristotle, and for that matter all ancient philosophy, were suppressed, or ignored, by the Christians, is not compatible with the historical record. St. Thomas Aquinas heavily expounded on Aristotle in the Summa in the 13th century, yes, but St. Augustine wrote extensively on Plato in The City of God written in the Fifth Century. If the writings of Plato, Aristotle, and other thinkers were "lost", it is not because the Christians suppressed them, or because the Christians were too ignorant and decided to burn them all - it is because the Mohammedans invaded and destroyed classical civilization (the Eastern Roman Empire), resulting in the loss of many important works. Classical civilization, with all its treasures and repositories of knowledge, was looted by the Muslims.

In other words, we may have launched the first space shuttle in the 1500s, had it not been for the Mohammedans. Of course that is mere speculation - besides, I like the Middle Ages as they were, and I wouldn't want any modern technology involved in the mix.

Christians have always been eager to engage in discourses and to expound on the writings and teachings of pagans. Thomas Aquinas zealously defended Aristotle from others in the church who thought Aristotle could not be reconciled with church doctrine.

Of course, like the Black Legend which the Protestants invented, some of the atheists or pagan sympathizers invented a horrifically inaccurate narrative about how the Catholic Church was an oppressive, authoritarian institution whose suppression of science caused the Dark Ages - and so on. This teaching of yours that Europe was the "backwater" (I resent that remark) of the rest of the world is just an extension of the modernist outlook on history. You do not realize that it was the Church that encouraged and promoted the progress of science, the arts, literature, and so on. The Church was behind the "Baroque" period in the history of arts. There are too many examples to mention here of how the Church has been a marvelous institution for the spiritual and corporeal well-being of the people of the world.

So, away with such un-researched and uppity remarks as "Europe was the backwater of the world".
Reply
#13
(7 Jun 2016, 16:20:02)Austenasia Wrote:
(6 Jun 2016, 21:46:35)DNSgov Wrote: Actually, during the time of the early Caliphate, medieval Europe was the backwater of the world. Classical civilization and its teachings were maintained by Muslim scholars, particularly in Alexandria.

I feel that the Eastern Roman Empire is being ignored here; not all Europe was a backwater. Alexandria would never have been ruled by the Muslims had they not invaded and conquered Egypt first.

Yes, but most of Europe tended to ignore, and even start wars and crusades against the Byzantine Empire. Those crusaders actually burned the city of Constantinople, destroying nearly all of the written works kept in the libraries (many of these books, which are mentioned in other classic works, are completely lost today because of the ignorance of Christian crusaders).
 [Image: Flag_of_San_Dover.png]

Violette "Suzuki" Clingersmith

Co-Founder and Leader of the Drew Star Line Legacy (2005-)
Creator and Caretaker of the Sunþrawegaz Kuningadōmas (2017-)


Uskorian Knight of the Bachelorette, Novian Baroness of the Fennec Fox,
Recipient of the Sovereign Order of the Rose, Recipient of the Order of Uskor, Member of the Austenasian Order.


Reply
#14
(7 Jun 2016, 16:36:07)Emperor Markus II Wrote: What two continents are these? I only know of seven continents, and none of them involved any program of Christian-sponsored mass-killing.

North and South America, Christian missionaries (especially Catholic) enslaved millions of Natives of these lands and worked them to death. At least 50 million were killed in the process, but a more likely figure is over 100 million, 90-95% of the Indigenous people of two continents wiped out because of Christian maltreatment.

(7 Jun 2016, 16:36:07)Emperor Markus II Wrote: Which two continents?

Africa and Asia, their lands and peoples were forcibly subjugated under the false pretenses of bringing Christian civilization to these native cultures.

(7 Jun 2016, 16:36:07)Emperor Markus II Wrote: The Catholic Church has always had a respectful attitude towards Jews, but perhaps we could discuss a few examples of this destruction of Judaism. The only example that I can think of - other than the invasion of Israel by the Muslims - is probably the Holocaust enacted by non-Christians, the Nazis. Are you really suggesting that the Christian faith has had some animosity towards Jews?

YES I AM!!! The Catholic church and Pope Pius XII did next to nothing to stop the mass killings of Jews during WWII, aside from saying that it "was wrong" (no duh!). Plus the Germans may not have been Catholic, but the Vichy French, Austrians, and Italians were, and these people also aided in the destruction of an entire race of people. The Spanish Inquisition also brought a forced Exodus of all the Jews on Iberian peninsula, a moved supported by Pope Sixtus IV. And that was the most documented atrocity committed by Christians on the Jews! From studding Medieval literature and history, you could fill 12 volumes and a three-part appendix of smaller incidents. Christians, and especially the Catholic church, blame Jews for the death of there beloved Jesus, and it's because of that a damn near perfect succession of Popes have condemned or down-right trodden on the Jewish people.

(7 Jun 2016, 16:52:09)Emperor Markus II Wrote: This notion - and I maintain it comes from modernist, uppity Enlightenment thinking - that the writings of Plato and Aristotle, and for that matter all ancient philosophy, were suppressed, or ignored, by the Christians, is not compatible with the historical record. St. Thomas Aquinas heavily expounded on Aristotle in the Summa in the 13th century, yes, but St. Augustine wrote extensively on Plato in The City of God written in the Fifth Century. If the writings of Plato, Aristotle, and other thinkers were "lost", it is not because the Christians suppressed them, or because the Christians were too ignorant and decided to burn them all - it is because the Mohammedans invaded and destroyed classical civilization (the Eastern Roman Empire), resulting in the loss of many important works. Classical civilization, with all its treasures and repositories of knowledge, was looted by the Muslims.

The Eastern Roman Empire didn't fall until 1453. By then the classical writings had been rediscovered by European merchants traveling the Silk Road, and by the looting of the libraries during the Reconquista. Plus, this knowledge was likely bought from the Byzantine traders in the 400 to 600s by Persian and Arab traders in the same region (before they became Muslim: don't use Mohammedan, it's an insult, the worship Allah, not Mohammed!). A vast collection was found in Alexandria when the Arabs planned to invade in the 700s. Oddly enough, they didn't, likely because the Byzantines threatened to raze the city, and its priceless library, to the ground. Instead, Muslim scholars moved in to copy the works kept in the libraries and send them to the Caliphate, a process which made the Byzantines in Alexandria quite rich.
 [Image: Flag_of_San_Dover.png]

Violette "Suzuki" Clingersmith

Co-Founder and Leader of the Drew Star Line Legacy (2005-)
Creator and Caretaker of the Sunþrawegaz Kuningadōmas (2017-)


Uskorian Knight of the Bachelorette, Novian Baroness of the Fennec Fox,
Recipient of the Sovereign Order of the Rose, Recipient of the Order of Uskor, Member of the Austenasian Order.


Reply
#15
Look, I don't know if I am allowed to intervene, but I must make some facts clear:

(7 Jun 2016, 16:20:02)Austenasia Wrote:
(6 Jun 2016, 21:46:35)DNSgov Wrote: Actually, during the time of the early Caliphate, medieval Europe was the backwater of the world. Classical civilization and its teachings were maintained by Muslim scholars, particularly in Alexandria.

I feel that the Eastern Roman Empire is being ignored here; not all Europe was a backwater. Alexandria would never have been ruled by the Muslims had they not invaded and conquered Egypt first.

You forgot the Frankish Monks and Charlemagne too. Western Europe was dark only before these guys came. And yes, Alexandria was a Byzantine (Eastern Roman) city, before it was conquered by the Muslims. Muslim culture is a copy of Eastern Roman culture. They couldn't create their own art.

(7 Jun 2016, 18:15:13)DNSgov Wrote:
(7 Jun 2016, 16:36:07)Emperor Markus II Wrote: What two continents are these? I only know of seven continents, and none of them involved any program of Christian-sponsored mass-killing.

North and South America, Christian missionaries (especially Catholic) enslaved millions of Natives of these lands and worked them to death. At least 50 million were killed in the process, but a more likely figure is over 100 million, 90-95% of the Indigenous people of two continents wiped out because of Christian maltreatment.
Look, I live in Latin America, and I can tell you that 90% of native Americans couldn't have been killed. Just in Panama alone over 20% of the population is native Americans.

Most died of the accidentally brought diseases like smallpox. And others married Spanish and Portuguese Conquistadores to breed the mestizos (white and native indian mix).

There was no European or Catholic sponsored genocide in the Americas.
PAULUS AEMILIUS I, DUX TREBIAE
Paolo Emilio I, Caudillo of Trebia
DEUS, PATRIA, REX
Reply
#16
(7 Jun 2016, 19:37:29)PavlvsAemilivs Wrote: Look, I live in Latin America, and I can tell you that 90% of native Americans couldn't have been killed. Just in Panama alone over 20% of the population is native Americans.

Most died of the accidentally brought diseases like smallpox. And others married Spanish and Portuguese Conquistadores to breed the mestizos (white and native indian mix).

There was no European or Catholic sponsored genocide in the Americas.

Yes, disease killed roughly 2/3 of the native population. However, it was because of the Catholic missionaries trying to forcible settle what were largely small nomadic tribes that caused the rapid spread of disease. These diseased and dying natives were still forced into slave labor, and because the Catholic missionaries refused to provide medical aid (although, to be fair, there was little they could do) to two dying continents of people, I'm still going to blame Catholic missionaries for their incompetence and willful neglect of conducting an order given by the Pope. By the time other European powers arrived, the Spanish had pretty much directly or indirectly wiped the native inhabitants of South and Central America, the diseases they brought having also reach North America, although the effect weren't as bad. Plus, this was 400 to 500 years ago, and the indigenous population of the Americas has thankfully rebounded from the few million that survived the ordeal of European colonization.
 [Image: Flag_of_San_Dover.png]

Violette "Suzuki" Clingersmith

Co-Founder and Leader of the Drew Star Line Legacy (2005-)
Creator and Caretaker of the Sunþrawegaz Kuningadōmas (2017-)


Uskorian Knight of the Bachelorette, Novian Baroness of the Fennec Fox,
Recipient of the Sovereign Order of the Rose, Recipient of the Order of Uskor, Member of the Austenasian Order.


Reply
#17
(7 Jun 2016, 21:52:28)DNSgov Wrote:
(7 Jun 2016, 19:37:29)PavlvsAemilivs Wrote: Look, I live in Latin America, and I can tell you that 90% of native Americans couldn't have been killed. Just in Panama alone over 20% of the population is native Americans.

Most died of the accidentally brought diseases like smallpox. And others married Spanish and Portuguese Conquistadores to breed the mestizos (white and native indian mix).

There was no European or Catholic sponsored genocide in the Americas.

Yes, disease killed roughly 2/3 of the native population. However, it was because of the Catholic missionaries trying to forcible settle what were largely small nomadic tribes that caused the rapid spread of disease. These diseased and dying natives were still forced into slave labor, and because the Catholic missionaries refused to provide medical aid (although, to be fair, there was little they could do) to two dying continents of people, I'm still going to blame Catholic missionaries for their incompetence and willful neglect of conducting an order given by the Pope. By the time other European powers arrived, the Spanish had pretty much directly or indirectly wiped the native inhabitants of South and Central America, the diseases they brought having also reach North America, although the effect weren't as bad. Plus, this was 400 to 500 years ago, and the indigenous population of the Americas has thankfully rebounded from the few million that survived the ordeal of European colonization.
No. Smallpox was brought by the Spanish. Europeans had immunity to the disease, whereas Natives didn't. Therefore, a large native population died. No people has suffered a pandemic for settling down from nomadic life. Yes, disease may take place, but not an epidemic strong enough to almost extinct a determined group.

The system that "enslaved" natives was called Encomienda. The Encomendero (chief of an Encomienda) had to take care of Encomendados (natives under the Encomienda), and Evangelize them in change of their labor force. Yes, it may sound like slavery, but it did good for the natives.

Black slaves from the Atlantic slave trade came because the Encomienda was eventually abolished and they became the new primary unpaid labor force. Personally, I don't like either option, I would have done things differently, but at least the indians and the blacks weren't treated as animals. They were Evangelized, fed, housed, and dressed by their masters. Furthermore, Spain abolished slavery shortly before the independence of their colonies.
PAULUS AEMILIUS I, DUX TREBIAE
Paolo Emilio I, Caudillo of Trebia
DEUS, PATRIA, REX
Reply
#18
(8 Jun 2016, 01:41:04)PavlvsAemilivs Wrote: The system that "enslaved" natives was called Encomienda. The Encomendero (chief of an Encomienda) had to take care of Encomendados (natives under the Encomienda), and Evangelize them in change of their labor force. Yes, it may sound like slavery, but it did good for the natives.

I refuse to treat with people who say that any kind of slavery does good for the victim. Get off mine and Markus' debate thread.
 [Image: Flag_of_San_Dover.png]

Violette "Suzuki" Clingersmith

Co-Founder and Leader of the Drew Star Line Legacy (2005-)
Creator and Caretaker of the Sunþrawegaz Kuningadōmas (2017-)


Uskorian Knight of the Bachelorette, Novian Baroness of the Fennec Fox,
Recipient of the Sovereign Order of the Rose, Recipient of the Order of Uskor, Member of the Austenasian Order.


Reply
#19
Is it because he argued in defense of the Western world better than I did?

I would have him remain. He is welcome.
Reply
#20
Well, let me intervene on a small point.

While I don't really care for Pope Pius, and am in fact an atheist like yourself, but I'll argue for him here nonetheless. The Vatican was surrounded by the capital of fascist Italy during WWII. How was he going to make that work? Would you? While I don't commend the courage of the pope, what he did is still understandable.
Sincerely,
His Excellency,
Ned Greiner
Genghis Khan of Nedland
Duke of Alkmaar (Mahuset)
President of Lundenland (Mahuset)
President of Zelenarus (Paravia)



Richard Cunninghytholoday Wrote:Now, when I say 'oh my god nobody cares,' please don't take offence; but oh my god, nobody cares.
Lucas Campos Wrote:Oh god, so high, 420% high
Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)