Thread Rating:
  • 1 Vote(s) - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
On Aztec Barbarism
#21
I would just like to point out a few things here.

First of all, would people please replace their usages of "Christian" with "Catholic" when appropriate? It alienates individuals such as myself (a Protestant) who are well aware of the abysmal behavior of the Catholic Church and opposed to much of it (such as the Spanish conquests), but still hold to the title of Christian. Such improper usage implies ignorance on the level of people who think Chinese and Japanese are the same ;)

Second, many here are quick to decry Christianity as a cause of suffering and death on a massive scale. I am not claiming that this is entirely inaccurate (especially with Catholicism, and in the face of Markus' shameless propagation of the White Legend of Spanish innocence), but I will remind the posters that the same things they say about religion causing conflict also apply to secular organizations and governments. Blind nationalism and devotion to nonreligious ideals directly caused the deaths of hundreds of millions of people worldwide in the 20th century alone. However, I am not suggesting that all government is inherently and utterly evil, as some people have done here in regards to religion. I merely point out that religion, like nearly every other aspect of human culture and society, has great potential benefits and positive contributions in addition to its negative aspects (much of world history and culture would be lost to us, for instance, if it were not for religious scholars who have recorded events and preserved them in libraries for millennia).

Just to recap, so we are clear. Do I agree with Markus? Nope. Do I associate myself with his church? Nope. Am I a Christian nonetheless? Yep. Do I think I'm superior to other people because of it? Nope. Do I wish people would stop with the ridiculous generalizations and realize that religion is not all evil, secularism is not all good, etc? You bet your best racehorse I do.
Supporter of memes that don't exist.
Reply
#22
(11 Jun 2016, 20:58:59)Sarky Wrote: I would just like to point out a few things here.

First of all, would people please replace their usages of "Christian" with "Catholic" when appropriate? It alienates individuals such as myself (a Protestant) who are well aware of the abysmal behavior of the Catholic Church and opposed to much of it (such as the Spanish conquests), but still hold to the title of Christian. Such improper usage implies ignorance on the level of people who think Chinese and Japanese are the same ;)

Second, many here are quick to decry Christianity as a cause of suffering and death on a massive scale. I am not claiming that this is entirely inaccurate (especially with Catholicism, and in the face of Markus' shameless propagation of the White Legend of Spanish innocence), but I will remind the posters that the same things they say about religion causing conflict also apply to secular organizations and governments. Blind nationalism and devotion to nonreligious ideals directly caused the deaths of hundreds of millions of people worldwide in the 20th century alone. However, I am not suggesting that all government is inherently and utterly evil, as some people have done here in regards to religion. I merely point out that religion, like nearly every other aspect of human culture and society, has great potential benefits and positive contributions in addition to its negative aspects (much of world history and culture would be lost to us, for instance, if it were not for religious scholars who have recorded events and preserved them in libraries for millennia).

Just to recap, so we are clear. Do I agree with Markus? Nope. Do I associate myself with his church? Nope. Am I a Christian nonetheless? Yep. Do I think I'm superior to other people because of it? Nope. Do I wish people would stop with the ridiculous generalizations and realize that religion is not all evil, secularism is not all good, etc? You bet your best racehorse I do.

I like this. I also understand that Christianity is not fundamentally bad, but in the wrong hands its teachings can be dangerous. And I think that's what is missing here, is the actions of a few twisted Christians (Protestants, while lacking the blood of indigenous Americans on their hands, still subjugated Africans and Asians in the name of Christ) have tarnished the reputation of the church.

The pastor at the church I was catechized in (Lutheran church; and I'm not religious anymore) once gave a stirring sermon (all his sermons are awesome) about the gay community. In it he stressed that he wanted to see more gays, lesbians, and transgenders in his church, and wanted all of us to welcome the LGBT community. He further stated that a caring, loving church of Christ is not one that turns these people away, but embraces the differences as something created by God for a reason: a beautiful reason, for everything God creates is beautiful. As a transgender, this sermon really meant a lot to me, and if I ever find God again I will undoubtedly return to this church.
 [Image: Flag_of_San_Dover.png]

Violette "Suzuki" Clingersmith

Co-Founder and Leader of the Drew Star Line Legacy (2005-)
Creator and Caretaker of the Sunþrawegaz Kuningadōmas (2017-)


Uskorian Knight of the Bachelorette, Novian Baroness of the Fennec Fox,
Recipient of the Sovereign Order of the Rose, Recipient of the Order of Uskor, Member of the Austenasian Order.


Reply
#23
(11 Jun 2016, 16:40:48)RepublicofSmithvilleGovernment Wrote: ...the Spanish Conquests were responsible for the genocide of 95% of all Native Americans mostly from disease.

That's an epidemic, not genocide. People had no knowledge of germs back then (so they especially didn't know that someone could be a disease carrier, but not be infected themselves) and the Native Americans had absolutely no immunity to Afro-Eurasian maladies, having never been exposed to them before. Add to that the natives' extensive trade networks, communal societies, and shared ancestry from a small group of original settlers (making for very low genetic diversity), and you have the perfect recipe for a supremely deadly series of plagues (because every major Afro-Eurasian disease would have hit them, one after another).

Europeans brought the illnesses with them, but it most definitely was not intentional.

(11 Jun 2016, 16:40:48)RepublicofSmithvilleGovernment Wrote: There have been tons of killings in the name of Christianity just as there have for every other religion. This is why I support Separation of Church and State. So no religion can go around starting wars or condemning others just for their nation's religious demographics.

No secular organization or government has ever started wars or condemned others based on demographics :rolleyes:

(11 Jun 2016, 16:40:48)RepublicofSmithvilleGovernment Wrote: But you need to remember, that religious beliefs don't matter in the end. What truly matters is your ideals, and how Progressive one is.

Yeah, because religions don't have ideals :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Supporter of memes that don't exist.
Reply
#24
All I have to say on this matter is that while I think its good Christianity was spread, it was wrong that it was spread through a campaign of merciless barbarism, slaughter and genocide. Markus, your levels of conflating faith, racism and imperialism is disgusting and shocking, there are died-in-the-wool national socialists I have conversed with in my time who's beliefs are less offensive that your poorly conceived, unresearched and frankly un-Christian ideology of hate.

How you've some how manipulated the Gospels of love and peace into a vessel of hatred sickens me. Your inability to follow the second commandment, one of the bedrocks upon which all of Christianity stands, smacks to me of heresy, and if it takes a nonconformist to tell you that, then you need to seriously think about what you believe.
His Lordship Richard I, by the Grace of God, Lord Spiritual of Mercia, Lord of Clyro, Heir to the Würtige Throne, Lord High Admiral of the Tsardom of Nolland, General of the Nollandish Army, Companion of Honour of the Tsardom of Nolland, Commander of the Order of Colour of McCarthia, Knight of the Sovereign Military Order of Sealand, Member of the Most Honourable Order of the Throne of Sandus, Knight of the Order of Adammia, OGC, CF.
Reply
#25
I would like to have a word, if I may. Note that i may repeat some things already stated, but my goal with this post is to address much of what has been stated throughout this thread from a point of view which is outside of conventional thought, particularly in this community. Excuse me for a rather lengthy post incoming, and I suggest people like Alejandro who are having issues containing themselves be aware of any potential triggers. And, for your information, if you want to find the real Aztec debate, skip a few paragraphs, although I do suggest you read the whole thing.

First of all, I'm going to start off a bit distant from the actual debate and work my way in. My first discussion point is some information from the late Murray Rothbard's Anatomy of the State, where he states: "With the rise of democracy...it is common to hear sentiments expressed which violate virtually every tenet of reason and common sense such as, "we are the government." The useful collective term "we" has enabled an ideological camouflage to be thrown over the reality of political life. If "we are the government," then anything a government does to an individual is not only just and untyrannical but also "voluntary" on the part of the individual concerned...We must, therefore, emphasize that "we" are not the government; the government is not "us" (Rothbard 9-10).

Why do I state this? Well, if we can implement this into the aspect of religion, you can see why I bring it up. I need to clarify that we, the Christians of this world, are not the Church. We are not represented by the Church or its actions. When you say that you do not identify as a Christian because of the Church and its actions, I don't take that as reasonable thinking. Rather, I take that as you cowardly camouflaging yourself from accepting the challenge of becoming and remaining a Christian. In the words of singer-songwriter Johnny Cash, "Being a Christian isn't for sissies. It takes a real man to live for God - a lot more than to live for the devil."

I'm not a blind man. I'm not a blind Christian, either. I was born into a family with a strong history of the loyal Irish Catholics. I was baptized Catholic. But through the course of my life I've become a Lutheran and now I'm Nondenominational. I have a strong displeasure with the Pope. I believe he is a hypocrite, a narcissist, and a liar. I believe the entire Catholic Church is commercialized and corporatist. I'm a Christian and I don't identify with any Church, because the hypocrisy of imperfect humans isn't going to suddenly make me stop believing in God. Such a mentality would make me no better than the Church, sacrificing my faith in exchange for mortal benefit. In conclusion of that point, I am a devout Christian and I do not affiliate with any Christian Church, and thus anyone using the Church as an excuse to not affiliate with a group is ludicrous.

What does represent an organization, on the other hand, is its fundamental ideology. When you think of America and Americans, you will think of freedom. That's not the government in which you are using to represent the whole population, that's an ideology which the peoples of that society have taken to heart for over 240 years. The same can be done for the other side of the argument. The Muslims of this world have understood and taken to heart the text of the Quran, a text which promotes ideas which blatantly violate human rights. I would like to note that the people who have adopted these ideals have undertaken them voluntarily and thus it evidently a book of morals and beliefs. On the other hand, those who have been forced into worshiping a certain deity or believing in a certain religion cannot accurately be represented by the text.

So, to summarize, the Church doesn't represent Christianity, however the Bible does. In the same manner, a caliphate doesn't represent Islam, however the Quaran does. However, it becomes complicated once you think about it because what I am really getting at is that you cannot set a generalization of an entire religious institution based upon the actions of the Church. However, when peering at the Aztecs, we can see that the manner in which the Aztecs worship their Gods is more essential than any religious texts since, as far as I am aware, religious text was not the primary source of religion for most Mesoamerican peoples. However, what I do know is that in the Aztec scripture "Legend of the Five Suns," all of the Gods sacrificed themselves for the perseverance of mankind. In accordance with that text, the Aztecs held a fundamental belief that an ongoing sacrifice is needed to sustain the universe. This belief is one that the Aztecs undertook voluntarily for their entire existence.

Am I going to act like the Spanish invaded Tenochtitlan as a liberation? No. Am I going to make a claim that the invasion is somehow unacceptable? Not by any means. At the time, and for much time after, land was a precious commodity admired as the bargaining key to the Imperial label. Obviously every nation would wish to be crowned as an Empire! Back in those times, commanding and conquering was the normal, it was a slice of natural law that managed to live on in the moral justification box from the dawn of mankind to its downfall as a moral "okay" in the 20th century. But peering reasonably at those times, I consider it vastly unfair to use today's political and military morals to condemn actions from a different time, especially when the Aztecs themselves would conquer vast lands.

So now that we can all accept the actions of the Spanish as acceptable for the time's moral code, I can explain the death of natives throughout America. The argument has already been made that disease brought on the death of the natives. That is very much true for the vast majority. But nonetheless, it is only fair to note that that disease emigrated to the Americas from the colonial powers of the Old World. But that fact doesn't give any right to anyone to condemn Europeans or colonialism. I would like to note the bubonic plague which took over Europe and reportedly led to the death of 60 percent of the European Population after it was carried over by merchants from Asia. While not colonialism in the slightest, in terms of the disease, the situation is fundamentally the same and thus is comparable. I fail to remember a time when I've heard Asians being condemned and called racist for the bubonic plague.

Markus, I am disgusted by your hypocrisy and narcissism. Alejandro, I would like to note that you are only making this a less pleasant debate by your behavior. This debate would be a world more pleasant if only this could be an exchange of points instead of three sentence responses with names swirled around. I hope that I brought an argument that somewhat compensates for the likes of Markus and Alejandro and provides more stability to this argument. Note that I do not deny any facts or ignore any arguments, rather explain in a somewhat comprehensive manner why I believe the entire Christian religion should not be blamed for the actions of the Church or an Imperial power. Additionally, I am not an expert on the Aztecs or Aztec faith, and so if my facts are off regarding any of their fundamental beliefs or text, I would appreciate if you pointed it out to me. Thank you very much.
[Image: 598px-Esseseal.png]
Henry Clémens
Count of Siñbaša, Marquis of New Keutschen, former Lord of the Commonwealth
OAO SEO SAV GKIS KOP KSR CUR OIF KOC MOT KOS CSB CRL COG
Former Lord of the Essian Commonwealth, former Chair of the Grand Unified Micronational, Founder and former President of the Federated States of America

Reply
#26
(11 Jun 2016, 21:11:46)DNSgov Wrote: The pastor at the church I was catechized in (Lutheran church; and I'm not religious anymore) once gave a stirring sermon (all his sermons are awesome) about the gay community. In it he stressed that he wanted to see more gays, lesbians, and transgenders in his church, and wanted all of us to welcome the LGBT community.

Evangelical Lutheran Church in America - ELCA? Is that the denomination he professed, your pastor?

(12 Jun 2016, 14:50:47)HL Richard I Wrote: All I have to say on this matter is that while I think its good Christianity was spread, it was wrong that it was spread through a campaign of merciless barbarism, slaughter and genocide. Markus, your levels of conflating faith, racism and imperialism is disgusting and shocking, there are died-in-the-wool national socialists I have conversed with in my time who's beliefs are less offensive that your poorly conceived, unresearched and frankly un-Christian ideology of hate.

Typical to the modernists, it seems that you have an attitude of guilt and self-loathing. Christianity was not spread through 'merciless barbarism', 'slaughter', or 'genocide'. Christianity has been spread voluntarily and peaceably.

Typical as well to the modernists are buzzwords, i.e., "racism". This word "racism", perhaps it should be applied to people who are actually racist, rather than those who you would like to call racist simply because you do not like them. You may call the Klu Klux Klan racist; and you may call Neo-Nazis racists. You may not, without evidence, call me "racist", because I am not a racist at all.

To me, it matters not what one's skin color is; rather it matters what one's religion is. I have only spoken out against heretical and false religions. I believe that there is only one race; and that is the human race.

(12 Jun 2016, 14:50:47)HL Richard I Wrote: How you've some how manipulated the Gospels of love and peace into a vessel of hatred sickens me.

No hatred; but there must be clarity. We must speak out against evil and combat it to the best of our ability. In the case of the Aztecs, they were a great evil and the Spanish did well to subdue them; in the case of Islam, they are a great evil, and inaction in the face of a crisis is a grave sin.

(12 Jun 2016, 14:50:47)HL Richard I Wrote: Your inability to follow the second commandment, one of the bedrocks upon which all of Christianity stands, smacks to me of heresy, and if it takes a nonconformist to tell you that, then you need to seriously think about what you believe.

"Thou shalt not make to thyself a graven thing". You took this as an opportunity to take a swipe at Catholics as well!

You speak with Pende too much. There is no idolatry here.

(12 Jun 2016, 16:19:28)Twain Wrote: I have a strong displeasure with the Pope. I believe he is a hypocrite, a narcissist, and a liar. I believe the entire Catholic Church is commercialized and corporatist.

Well, I never!

(12 Jun 2016, 16:19:28)Twain Wrote: I'm a Christian and I don't identify with any Church, because the hypocrisy of imperfect humans isn't going to suddenly make me stop believing in God. Such a mentality would make me no better than the Church, sacrificing my faith in exchange for mortal benefit. In conclusion of that point, I am a devout Christian and I do not affiliate with any Christian Church, and thus anyone using the Church as an excuse to not affiliate with a group is ludicrous.

Christianity and the Church are one and the same, do you know this?

(12 Jun 2016, 16:19:28)Twain Wrote: So, to summarize, the Church doesn't represent Christianity, however the Bible does.

1 Timothy 3:15 - But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

(12 Jun 2016, 16:19:28)Twain Wrote: Markus, I am disgusted by your hypocrisy and narcissism. Alejandro, I would like to note that you are only making this a less pleasant debate by your behavior. This debate would be a world more pleasant if only this could be an exchange of points instead of three sentence responses with names swirled around.

I have not made any insults at all, so find someone else to complain about.
Reply
#27
(13 Jun 2016, 00:35:08)Emperor Markus II Wrote: Evangelical Lutheran Church in America - ELCA? Is that the denomination he professed, your pastor?

Yeah, he is. And what's it to you, you homophobic piece of dung? You gonna bash a great man, a family man, a man who cares about the his community, because he doesn't share the same BS sympathies and racist thoughts that you do? Bite me, you arrogant teenager.
 [Image: Flag_of_San_Dover.png]

Violette "Suzuki" Clingersmith

Co-Founder and Leader of the Drew Star Line Legacy (2005-)
Creator and Caretaker of the Sunþrawegaz Kuningadōmas (2017-)


Uskorian Knight of the Bachelorette, Novian Baroness of the Fennec Fox,
Recipient of the Sovereign Order of the Rose, Recipient of the Order of Uskor, Member of the Austenasian Order.


Reply
#28
Of course not.

However, I am not surprised that it was ELCA.
Reply
#29
(13 Jun 2016, 02:02:11)DNSgov Wrote:
(13 Jun 2016, 00:35:08)Emperor Markus II Wrote: Evangelical Lutheran Church in America - ELCA? Is that the denomination he professed, your pastor?

Yeah, he is. And what's it to you, you homophobic piece of dung? You gonna bash a great man, a family man, a man who cares about the his community, because he doesn't share the same BS sympathies and racist thoughts that you do? Bite me, you arrogant teenager.

He asked a question. There's been many things Matkus has said that warranted a reaction like this, absolutely, but I don't quite see why this post did?
[Image: buy_email_lists_21819162.jpg]
In the words of  Bill Clinton
I did was not affiliated or part take in the actions of the hackers, Dreamlight Hackerz
Reply
#30
(13 Jun 2016, 02:52:14)frix Wrote: He asked a question. There's been many things Markus has said that warranted a reaction like this, absolutely, but I don't quite see why this post did?

Markus deserves it. If ya'll aren't willing to bring his asinine comments in check, then I will!
 [Image: Flag_of_San_Dover.png]

Violette "Suzuki" Clingersmith

Co-Founder and Leader of the Drew Star Line Legacy (2005-)
Creator and Caretaker of the Sunþrawegaz Kuningadōmas (2017-)


Uskorian Knight of the Bachelorette, Novian Baroness of the Fennec Fox,
Recipient of the Sovereign Order of the Rose, Recipient of the Order of Uskor, Member of the Austenasian Order.


Reply


Forum Jump:


Users browsing this thread: 1 Guest(s)