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The Intermicronational Association (IA)
My name is Mark Kavanah, and I am extremely proud to be responsible for publicising the Intermicronational Association (IA) in the MicroWiki Community. The IA is a new intermicronational organisation, which is likely to be launched either in late 2017 or early 2018. This press release is intended to kick off the process of accruing sufficient interest to launch the organisation and also to tweak the structure to be as appropriate as possible to the member states that choose to join.

The following documents provide some more information about the IA and about the rationale behind its creation: - An introduction to the IA. Intended for members of the Intermicronational Community (IC), but still a useful starting place to understanding how the organisation will work. - A response to initial concerns raised by members of the IC. Includes some further information about the launch of the organisation and over time is likely to develop into a more wide-ranging FAQ.

(Still being written, this post will be updated) - A localisation of the IA's introduction with deveoped information about how the IA will interact with the MWC and a frank and honest discussion of what the IC is, how it differs to the MWC and how the IC's attitudes to the MWC and vice versa will or will not effect reintegration prospects.

I encourage interested individuals or news reporters to express their thoughts below. I don't live in a dream world, and even after the localisation document is completed, I expect there will still be much more skepticism in the MWC than the IC about the IA. However, I am not here because I expect to be congratulated or commended - I am here because I am a strong believer in the IA's potential and also in reintegration (in the manner expressed in the localisation document.) Do not hesistate to contact me if you have any sensitive concerns you would not wish to post below this post.

Thank you for reading this press release, and I look fowards to working with my micronational comrades in the MWC to create a new micronational organisation that doesn't worry about the boundaries between communities.
Alright, I have gone through the information provided, and I have decided to "express their thoughts below."  As someone who has lead a micronation almost non-stop since 2005, and a member of this particular community on-and-off for the past five years, I think I am knowledgeable enough to add my mite to your proposal. Like you, I shall split everything into separate topics. Also, I'm writing each topic as I read it. I love having spoilers at the end, don't you President Kavanah?

Quote:Is the Intermicronational Community dying?

First of all, I 'love' how you like to define everything (IC, MWC, IA, etc.) Personally, I view it as a confusing way of tripping up the reader. In fact, when I began to read this, I though the IC was this particular forum. You learn to define your acronyms before you litter a document with them.

Secondly, it does not look good when the first thing out of the ring is, and I quote: "the Intermicronational Community has [sic] failed to achieve its goal. Okay, so what this means to me, and I have not read the next section yet, is that this YAMO was created specifically to revitalize your effort to create a rift in the MicroWiki community.

Next, we have an interesting list of the micronationalists that are involved. Correct me if I'm wrong, but most micronational communities have active members from more than one micronation, in this case the Monarchist Republic. Also, it's nice that you conveniently ignore President McCarthy and Grand Vizier Greiner in your community, despite the fact that from my perspective, openly welcoming them would at least show your IC has some variety.

Quote:It’s impossible to create a consistent definition for the term ‘micronational community.’

This part made no sense to me. Why did you waste 1001 words just to reiterate the same section header? I spent 3 minutes reading that. While I understand the story behind the creation of a YAMO is important to the reasoning it was created to begin with, this whole section I believe was not necessary.

I also love how you tell us that many micronational citizens sit down and discuss lawmaking. Like, okay, yeah... you do realize the people reading this are micronationalists, right? I didn't just wake up today and learn that as a micronationalist I'm supposed to be sitting down making laws. That kind of comes with the whole shtick.

Oh, and I find it interesting how you use the definition of the MicroWiki community in your "white paper." By the definition of a "largely self-contained micronational community on MicroWiki by using the Wiki, its forums and various Skype chatrooms," that technically makes Glastieve a member of the MicroWiki community. Its citizens are in contact with several members of this community through your own admittance on Skype and Facebook, and your, as the leader of Glastieve, are still on posting threads here on the forums of the MicroWiki community. Ultimately, the IC is part of the MWC, at least according to your overly long explanation as to what a community is.

Quote:The IC is nothing but a collective term for increasingly separate clusters of social connections.

If this is the case, then why have you defined it as the nations of Glastieve and the Monarchist Republic, with a handful of representatives from a few seemingly less dedicated micronations?

Oh, hey, and further down, you admit that the IC is a part of the MWC! "NC; what would become the IC [sic] was never really independent of the MWC." Oh, and you claim that you intended for your 'new community' to mooch off of the MicroWiki. That's a great one.

I love this one: "as time went on, the IC stopped defining itself in opposition to MicroWiki." From what I have seen, that has been the IC's one and only definition for existence, since it's beginnings in mid-August to today, barely two months later.

Quote:The difficulty with attempting to establish a centre for a community founded on interpersonal, and not diplomatic, relations.

Okay... So it's set up the same way as this community... Or the MicroWikia... Or King Henry's forums (BTW Henry, if you're listening, I think I'm the last active user there; well, besides maybe King Shamus). Also, it's really not that hard to create a community. Just don't try to influence the users there, unless they break a rule. In which case, you're just removing the person, not changing the individual or their micronation.

Quote:The advantages of the Intermicronational Association as a solution to the IC’s issues and as an entirely new opportunity

So, now we get to the real part of this whole thing. Why the IA needs to exist. Let's see... GUM is unfair is a point made; the solution there is to not join the GUM.

Establish "consistent trading and economic standards." WHAT??? Okay, right there. Right there, that is the key phrase of this entire paper, and it's something I quite expected. Wow. So, this goes from a micronational community to an economic lordship over the entities that reside in it. Even for those who have no interest in being economic partners in the matter, they are pretty much bullied into it through sanctions and being barred from trading (sounds like the Trade Federation, to me). I have a HUGE problem with this, and I am sure that everyone will see my point here. What this article right here entails is that a select lobby, chosen by people high up on the totem pole, will have the power to decide what economy the members of this YAMO will have. Completely devoid, to my eyes, of oversight, and without a single word of complaint from the micronations that run it.

Now, many organizations here in the community have economic stipulations. The YAMO I helped created, the Kermadec Union, had one as well. The difference is that everyone had to agree to the proposed economic developments, and depending on the circumstances was allowed to opt out. This is actually quite normal. What is not normal, is for one insanely bureaucratic group to go around telling everyone how they should run their economy without oversight and without permission. That goes beyond the YAMO level and into empire building.

Quote:Overview of the IA’s structure at formation

Going back on what I recall reading about Glastieve's government and the proposed IA structure laid out here, they seem nearly identical to my eye. Also, "these [senators] must be elected in a specific manner laid out in the Charter." Ouch. So, that completely bypasses the traditional governments of every micronation in your YAMO right there, and replaces it with that utilized by Glastieve. Interesting stuff. I love how you yet again threaten any member who disobeys the law, which they must implement, with sanctions.

My final thoughts? This is empire building. Plain and simple. The most glaring fact that points to this is the utter control this YAMO will have over everyone's economy, not to mention it will bypass the electoral system of each member state. The interesting similarities between Glastieve's government and this YAMO's structure tells me that this will be a Glastieve-dominated arena. The most incredible part of all of this is one large omission: members don't seem to be able to leave, or at least there is no process for them to leave. 

So, why do I think you proposed it? Honestly, I have viewed your 'new community' as Glastieve's attempt to make a name for itself and get more followers. And plenty of followers from several micronations is the first step towards empire building in this line of work. So, what do you do? You took a simple problem: not as many people post on the forums anymore, and you blew it out of proportion by pointing the fingers at the GUM. Which I will say, I was briefly a part of twice, and in general they could care less about what happens in the forums. I remember spending several hours pleading with them to do something about Emperor Markus II last year, to no avail, because it was against GUM law to intervene. That organization has no influence here.

Anyways, it would seem that Glastieve's empire-building has hit a stone-wall. The only micronation you seem to have ensnared is the Monarchist  Republic. Mcarthia, Nedlando-Khorașan, and Delvera have failed to gather around you as closely as you had hoped. So, reform it. Make the IC the IA, and bring them into the fold (which I doubt they'd fall for, BTW; taking a nation's economy away is a big turn off in these parts), and prevent them from leaving.

My main reason for believing this is an attempt at empire building is the simple question: "why propose it here?" If this a replacement for the IC, then propose it individually with its members, especially seeing as how you seem bent on defining these forums and your Facebook group as separate communities. The solution to all of this is easily revealed when one thinks about how much you wish for your voice to be heard. Everybody is here, nobody is on Facebook. Or at least, not the big fish. And through all of this, you try to drive a wedge in this community by pointing fingers at the administration of a website that, I want to point out here, they spend money from their own pockets so you can use. How much have you spent on the domain, anti-virus, and technical upkeep of this website? Or any website, for that matter. If Emperor Jonathan and his admins didn't care about us, they'd show it by having this entire site strewn with advertisements.

While I am not against micronational organizations, and I believe that cooperation between our little countries is a good thing, I vehemently believe that you and your proposed IA are nothing short of a vain attempt at both creating an empire for Glastieve and damaging the reputation of Emperor Jonathan for calling you out as I have done so now. If this is not the case, then I urge you to leave out the so-called 'split' in your causes for the IA's creation, allow office holders to be elected normally, and do not try to take away a member state's economy from them. Also, make it clear if members can leave at any time. Something tells me you simply haven't thought about that yet, but another part of me realizes that if you have, you'll purposefully make it as impossible as you possibly can.

I'm gonna close out here, because I've been typing for an hour and its already tomorrow where I live. I apologize for any typos you may come across, but I am getting a bit tired!
 [Image: Flag_of_San_Dover.png]

Violette "Suzuki" Clingersmith

Co-Founder and Leader of the Drew Star Line Legacy (2005-)
Creator and Caretaker of the Sunþrawegaz Kuningadōmas (2017-)

Uskorian Knight of the Bachelorette, Novian Baroness of the Fennec Fox,
Recipient of the Sovereign Order of the Rose, Recipient of the Order of Uskor, Member of the Austenasian Order.

Well said, I couldn't agree with you more Suzuki. My two cents here, it seems like you are trying to create a sort of (like Suzuki said) empire by drawing in various nations, which isn't my biggest concern. My Reich is essentially an empire of nations that are unified under the Conservative National Socialist Party or Dashist Party but unlike what you are doing, the nations in the Reich get to keep their sovereignty and remain able to establish their own laws they see fit for their respective nations.

What binds the nations of the Greater National Socialist/Greater Dashist Reich together is that we all share the same ideology. As Führer I don't make each member state do something they don't want to do, plus each member state can leave the Reich whenever they please.

What you are doing seems to be a bit on par with globalism in a way, but on a micronational scale. In a way this reminds me of the one dude who wanted all micronations to unite and merge together under one flag and one government,  HIS flag and HIS government. But if you are trying to focus on the micronational community then why not just communicate with each nation on this forum about whatever converns you may have? I personally don't feel that this forum is doing bad, people like myself haven't been active here because they have things to do that don't pertain to micronationalism. But any who, I don't want to rant.

Personally I suggest insyead of worrying about what other nations are doing, you should focus on your nation. The GNSR used to be involved in other nation's affairs, we garnished allies and a war almost broke out, said allies assisted the Reich but honestly none of that had to happen had I handled things differently. Now I'm isolationist amd self sufficient, I put Newmerica and the rest of my Reich first. And like Suzuki also said, about this forums and the administration here, they do a fantastic job and bust their tookalookers to keep this site up and running. I really appreciate the fact that I have a place to communicate with other micronationalists. Facebook isn't the place for me specifically, I can't express my opinions on Facebook like I can on here. At least not without someone getting triggered or whatnot. Here I can talk and debate amongst like minded individuals.

I know you have good intentions but I believe what you are doing has flaws. But then again, who am I to tell you how and what you should do, I'm just some leader of some group of nationsaking suggestions...
- His Excellency, The Führer of the Greater Dashist Reich
(21 Oct 2017, 08:22:00)Thomas Merrell Wrote: For those of us in the community who lead entities that are working to break the shell of being "micronations" and become something different entirely, it's not the best thing to literally place the word "micronation" into your organization's name.

Big supporter of the Resolution on Intermicronational Sovreignity here, it's really changed my viewpoint on things like this. Some of you may even remember me calling the community the "community of small unrecognised states," but I feel as though I'm now in a place where I'm realistic enough to understand the chances of micronations securing macronational recognition but also satisfied with my understanding of what it means to be a micronstion, using the word in a non-prejorative sense.
(21 Oct 2017, 05:17:47)Suzuki/Violette Wrote: Alright, I have gone through the information provided [...] a bit tired!

don't mind me, just a mod making this remotely readable

<joke> Suzuki, I know you're terrified of "empire building" because someone allegedly through a bleach-filled water balloon at you, but this whole thing is paranoid madness that only serves to prove my point </joke>

Humorous argumentum ad hominem aside, thank you for taking out the time to read through my document and provide such a detailed response. It may not seem like it from the fact that I'll be refuting a lot of what you've said, but I'm glad you've posted it, as it will help to show the community that the IA and it's structures will stand up to scrutiny.

Firstly, I'm not "President Kavanah" in any organisation or micronstion. I am the Glastieven Minister for Communications and Press Strategy (in no way the leader), and the Deputy Chair of the IA's Planning Committee. I will be standing for election to become a member of the senate, and possibly to become a minister, but I will have no automatic leadership of the organisation. I just wanted to raise this as it's symptomatic of a strange syndrome that pretends that the IC is just me or that I have power to lead Glastieve. For someone who later claims to be familiar with Glastieve's constitution, this seems quite a strange error to make.

Secondly, you've misunderstood me. The acronym problem is only an issue for non-IC readers, and I promise that once I've finished replying here I will set to work on completing the localisation document. To clarify, The Monarchist Republic is not actually a country, it's simply a name for a chatroom, comparable to the Ragged Flagon or Sgt Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club. Also, "has [sic]". Collective nouns, such as the names of nations or communities, behave as singular nouns. I wouldn't have pointed it out if you hadn't. Also, the choice not to count them was just to try to be candid about how many people are actually members of the IC and not of the MWC; we've been accused before of self-aggrandizing and I didn't want to get into that discussion again.

"Why did you waste 1001 words just to reiterate the same section header?" - this leads into an explanation of how the IA can solve these problems. It's an attempt to analyse the situation in order to present the solution as rational and considered; I don't see that this is a problem. And again, please stop referring to me as "the leader of Glastieve." I'm here about the IA, not Glastieve, and it just feeds in to this obsession with putting my ego at the root of everything in the IC and Glastieve. It's tiresome, and you've been through similar issues of being stigmatized. "Ultimately, the IC is part of the MWC, at least according to your overly long explanation as to what a community is" - I'm disregarding this, as your sole piece of evidence for this very contentious statement relies upon a factually inaccurate insult against me personally.

I'm ignoring the next section completely, as it's just more of the same rubbish about the IC posturing. I can't be bothered to defend it because I know that it won't work, and because I don't need this community's approval any more.

That's as far as I'm going to go without a computer keyboard. I'll take the time to address your concerns more fully later, but I'd point out that Glastieve's government is nothing like the IA's, and that you have a history of hating micronational organisations because they're "empire building."

I'll write my full reply as soon as I have access to a computer, but until then, thank you for raising your concerns. Without criticism, we can't improve.
(21 Oct 2017, 08:58:22)Mark Kavanah Wrote:
(21 Oct 2017, 05:17:47)Suzuki/Violette Wrote: Alright, I have gone through the information provided [...] a bit tired!

don't mind me, just a mod making this remotely readable

I'm ignoring the next section completely, as it's just more of the same rubbish about the IC posturing. I can't be bothered to defend it because I know that it won't work, and because I don't need this community's approval any more.

Which is odd, because that was easily the most interesting part of Suzuki's post.

I will write a proper response later today.
Just to add share a token of my thoughts, I do very well realize that there a lot of drawbacks and potential at the same time to this organization. However, Suzuki, you kind of need to calm down in your criticism. You just rejoined the forums, and while I am cool with you, I just really want everyone to have a little decent respect for Mark and hear him our without just bashing insults. This goes to everyone, including myself.

Anyways, as for the organization I have expressed my concerns in different venues and got appropriate answers from Mr.Kavanah. I do definitely have concerns over how much power the organization will have on its member states and how will they be able to leave, but this can be arranged and talked through. There is no need for unprovoked criticism of such high level when he is merely sharing his ideas, and I respect his right to do so without being treated in such a manner.

Oh and please, no one forget the GUM is literally collapsing and has been going down hill for the past few months. Inactivity is at an all time high, and we do even less than before (even before we used to hardly do anything). Perhaps we should be welcoming to this new organization, or perhaps we should establish a loose association, or even nothing at all. Whatever the case, let us all be respectful of each other's views. Thank you.
Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that.
By Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
My conclusion thus far: I really don't understand this.

My first concern is how much of your reasoning is predicated on arbitrary and artificial distinctions between micronational communities that treat MicroWiki and the Intermicronational Community as separate universes. To imagine that a micronation exists only in one of these communities is a bizarre and illogical proposition that bears no resemblance to how macronational states conduct international diplomacy. 

I think this stems from the fact that the IC is not yet a true, independent 'community.' I'm not criticising your efforts, this is how I see it as a matter of fact. Micras is a different community. The Wikia is a different community. The IC however appears to be made up of micronations that originated on this forum, has members that still use these forums and has members that are still in contact with the 'conventional' MicroWiki members. It appears that the IC still has strong links with MicroWiki.

I would personally define the IC not as a community, but a movement. It's no less legitimate for that, but this has implications for the Intermicronational Association's position within the broader micronational community.

I think the reasoning you gave us when you first announced the IC has a degree of truth to it, but I think you've taken a cynical and, frankly, paranoid view of how the community operates. It's undeniable that older micronationalists exercise power of the rest of the community, but not in the manner you suggest. The MicroWiki admins (and I say this as a party to the admins' Skype chat) don't have some conspiratorial power-grabbing scheme. If the older members of the community appear hostile to younger members, it's usually out of frustration at seeing these younger members make the same mistakes that the older members have made or seen made many times before. I'm not justifying that, that's just how I think it usually functions.

With direct regard now for the IA. At the moment, we're in trouble. I have a reputation for dramatically and entirely incorrectly forecasting the community's downfall, but at least this time many much older micronationalists are in agreement. Activity is dangerously low and poses a threat to MicroWiki's sustainability. From one perspective, this is an argument for the creation of an organisation, as it might spark more activity. On the other hand, I worry that the timing of this new organisation is far from opportune. I am concerned that you will simply not be able to find enough active individuals willing to contribute. It's perfectly possible that in a few months, things will pick up. But now is the wrong time to embark on an ambitious new project like this. You only get one shot at this, after all.

I appreciate you'll be sick of the 'YAMO' chorus, but I can only repeat it. It's been proved over and over and over again that this community has no need or want for micronational UNs. The GUM had a pretty good shot at succeeding, but it's seriously struggling now, and many of us have debated if it's time to end it, or at least suspend it until a better time. Believe me, no one at the top of the GUM is under any illusion that we can go on like this. I just do not see how the IA is going to be any different from all the other similar organisations that have been attempted. You've given us a comparison of the differences between the GUM and the IA, but these appear either superficial and/or substantively immaterial.

The fact that it's a 'rational and considered response' means nothing. So was the GUM, despite your claims to the contrary. You say it's 'likely to persist on community spirit' - a hope wildly divorced from reality. I'll come back to the bit about imposing laws on other micronations, but your enforcement mechanism seems to be 50% based on economic sanctions, and, yeah, I'll come to the economic side of it as well. All democracy's ever done for an organisation was weigh in down with bureaucracy (see Nollandish Confederacy). Two binding international courts aren't going to keep it alive, particularly as there's so little activity at the moment nobody seems to dispute anything. Being based in intermicronational law won't do anything for you (also the GUM Charter is basically the definition of intermicronational law at the moment, but that's a matter for another day). The GUM has a communications arm, and it doesn't have an economic arm because - well, I'll come back to that later.

Now, you suggest 10 different organs of this organisation. That's absurd. There simply cannot be justification for having that much bureaucracy. That will seriously kill your organisation, because, while I don't wish to pass judgement, you frankly haven't a hope of keeping all of that functioning. That amount of bureaucratic structure could only be conceivably justified after several years of an organisation flourishing

An organisation needs to be able to impose laws on member states if it wants to be effectual, but giving an organisation that power means no one wants to join. The concern about empire building is entirely valid, I'm afraid, particularly when you say this—

Quote: Secondly, aside from this practical consideration, allowing the IA to preside over smaller bodies reduces the YAMO problem. If the entire IC participates, then YAMOs would be replaced by IA bodies, which need to be created by directive and voted on, which is a built-in way of ensuring structural consistency between organisations and community approval of their creation, without relying on the messy and undemocratic ideas of community leaders approving or rejecting organisations, as seen in the MWC.
It sounds like a massive federation, or at least that you're trying to create an organisation with absolute control over a community (I recommend this article). 
Mark, I now see that you've gone at left even your own chatroom because you don't want any links to MicroWiki. In that case, I shall reserve the rest of my comments until such time as I believe they may be relevant.
(21 Oct 2017, 08:58:22)Mark Kavanah Wrote: Suzuki, I know you're terrified of "empire building" because someone allegedly through a bleach-filled water balloon at you, but this whole thing is paranoid madness that only serves to prove my point

Actually, I was the one throwing balloons at other people. Not the other way around. But, I will ignore your lack of facts not for lack of trying, but because this thread involves the IA, and not my past.

Anyways, my apologies for incorrectly referring to you as the President of Glastieve. I'm just rather used to the leaders (or former leaders) of micronations being the primary users here, not, if you'll pardon the term, lesser citizens. Since I couldn't look it up on the fly, what with Glastieve not having a wiki article, I assumed you must be the leader of said Republic.

You should have made what the Monarchist Republic is a bit more clear in your document. If you were sharing this document among the micronations that are apart of it, then I can see why it was left out. But you happen to be sharing it with the whole community, and that implication means you should at least pull in a quick explanation as to what something is. This newfound fact has actually made me more acute to my beliefs that this is empire building on your part, since the only active, contributing members of the IC are currently Glastieve citizens.

My definition of the IC being part of this community is still sound, as it has been reiterated three times in your document, and you even went as far as to claim that the IC was designed to leech off of the MicroWiki. The very fact you do not wish to go in-depth into this, other than vehemently deny it, tells me that I hit the hammer on the nail.

Also, I love how you drag my personal life into this as though my past is identical to yours, as if doing so will make me sympathetic to your self-aggrandizement. Leave me out of this, as you weren't here when that happened, and you therefor have no right to claim that Iv'e "been through similar issues of being stigmatized."
 [Image: Flag_of_San_Dover.png]

Violette "Suzuki" Clingersmith

Co-Founder and Leader of the Drew Star Line Legacy (2005-)
Creator and Caretaker of the Sunþrawegaz Kuningadōmas (2017-)

Uskorian Knight of the Bachelorette, Novian Baroness of the Fennec Fox,
Recipient of the Sovereign Order of the Rose, Recipient of the Order of Uskor, Member of the Austenasian Order.

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