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Irish abortion referendum, let's have a debate!
#21
(23 May 2018, 18:07:24)Tjorvi Wrote: The idea of simply putting a child up for adoption doesn't really work. There are already too many children waiting for to be adopted but they never are, many "age out" where they reach adulthood waiting to be adopted.

Does that, in your opinion, justify killing the child?
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#22
Deliberately place a child in pointless and needless suffering where the child may be brutally killed, live a life of fear and malnutrition or placed into human trafficking, or abort the child before it becomes self aware..

Tough choice.
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#23
(23 May 2018, 18:07:24)Tjorvi Wrote: The idea of simply putting a child up for adoption doesn't really work. There are already too many children waiting for to be adopted but they never are, many "age out" where they reach adulthood waiting to be adopted.

Very true... a buddy of mine was stationed overseas and tried to adopt a 19 year old Korean girl and bring her back to the states. They wouldn't let him.
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#24
(23 May 2018, 20:20:14)Tjorvi Wrote: Deliberately place a child in pointless and needless suffering where the child may be brutally killed, live a life of fear and malnutrition or placed into human trafficking, or abort the child before it becomes self aware..

Tough choice.

So being self-aware is the standard of what constitutes life?

What about people who are, God forbid it! locked in their own bodies?
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#25
(24 May 2018, 05:26:43)Markus Pius Wrote: So being self-aware is the standard of what constitutes life?

Yes, otherwise I'll have to reevaluate getting frustrated every time I play against a brutal level AI in a computer game.

Quote:What about people who are, God forbid it! locked in their own bodies?

That isn't the topic here, so I find no need to answer this.
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#26
I agree with Thomas on this one. I very much want to have a family one day, however I also know that there is a high chance that any children I have may inherent one or more of my multiple heart conditions. I'm lucky in that my conditions help balance each other out, but if I was missing just one of them, I probably wouldn't be living a comfortable life today. The knowledge that I might transfer one of these conditions to a child is frightening: I wouldn't want anybody I care about to have to go through what I went through as a child or worse. If my partner agreed with me, I wouldn't mind aborting my own child if it was a matter of death or life-long medical suffering. People can argue day and night about the ethics of abortions and the concerns people have for their own futures with or without children, but for some people like me, the mindset is focus exclusively on the child's wellbeing.
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Violette "Suzuki" Clingersmith

Founder and Leader of the Sovereign San Doverian Order (2005-)
Creator and Caretaker of the Sunþrawegaz Kuningadōmas (2017-)
 Creator and Caretaker of Hadlow n'Melthrune (2019-)

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#27
(24 May 2018, 17:11:56)Suzuki Leōcor Wrote: I agree with Thomas on this one. I very much want to have a family one day, however I also know that there is a high chance that any children I have may inherent one or more of my multiple heart conditions. I'm lucky in that my conditions help balance each other out, but if I was missing just one of them, I probably wouldn't be living a comfortable life today. The knowledge that I might transfer one of these conditions to a child is frightening: I wouldn't want anybody I care about to have to go through what I went through as a child or worse. If my partner agreed with me, I wouldn't mind aborting my own child if it was a matter of death or life-long medical suffering. People can argue day and night about the ethics of abortions and the concerns people have for their own futures with or without children, but for some people like me, the mindset is focus exclusively on the child's wellbeing.

How would you be able to bear children?

I shouldn't have to go into the underlying details that led me to ask this question...
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#28
(25 May 2018, 02:33:18)Markus Pius Wrote: How would you be able to bear children?

I shouldn't have to go into the underlying details that led me to ask this question...

Because I was smart when it came to living my life as I wanted to live it. I shouldn't have to go into the underlying details that led me to this decision in my personal life.
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Violette "Suzuki" Clingersmith

Founder and Leader of the Sovereign San Doverian Order (2005-)
Creator and Caretaker of the Sunþrawegaz Kuningadōmas (2017-)
 Creator and Caretaker of Hadlow n'Melthrune (2019-)

Uskorian Knight of the Bachelorette, Novian Baroness of the Fennec Fox,
Recipient of the Sovereign Order of the Rose, Recipient of the Order of Uskor, Member of the Austenasian Order.

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#29
(24 May 2018, 16:33:29)Thomas Merrell Wrote: Also to consider are those cases where the child is almost guaranteed to live a life of pointless suffering because of genetic conditions.

[...]

If a child with serious genetic conditions grows up and their parents die, who are they to depend on? The state will rarely take them in out of the goodness of its heart, and it's already overburdened with those who falsely claim genuine need for support. If a child grows up in abject poverty, they'll live a life of suffering and their childhood will know almost naught but the ugly side of reality. They'll carry this bitterness as an adult, and will most likely remain desperately poor themselves because their parents couldn't afford to give their child what they need, never mind what they themselves need to survive.

[...]

But, this is morality we're also talking about, as well as the good of society. If we diminish the value of life, then awful things like murder would also increase in frequency and scope, and other core moral values key to the survival of the nation would also erode.

This is also a good point. If it's considered acceptable to kill somebody in the womb because they'll just grow up to have a poor quality of life, it's not a huge leap to consider having a poor quality of life a good enough justification to kill somebody out of the womb. If exceptions are made as to who the right to life applies to, then it sets a dangerous precedent.
His Imperial Majesty
Jonathan I
(Imperator Caesar Jonathan Augustus)
By the Grace of Christ our God faithful Austenasian Emperor and Autocrat of the Romans
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#30
The final vote count is in! 66.4% of Ireland voted to become a more compassionate place! Ireland has voted to repeal the law!
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